<div>>Look at all the regulations we have for possession and carrying of firearms. [...]</div><div><br></div>I'm less arguing it should be regulated under such and more saying that in a pinch, making the trade illegal will never happen due to the 2nd amendment. The politics of such are for the politicians, I could really care less, exploits and thus the trade are a reality thats never going away. <div>
<br></div><div>That said, lets not fool ourselves, they're weapons and whether we like it or not, regulation will come one day. We already have seen the precursors in a few places in Europe. If I had to take a wild stab at it, it's probably 5-10 years off once the full effect of integrating the subculture out of the private sector and into the public sector/IC arena has been seen/felt. But that's just speculation on my part.<br>
<div><br></div><div>at any rate, the actual point of my post was all the other paragraphs; people are sorta caught up on what was (to me) irrelevant side details where I apparently badly tried to explain that I sit on the 'let it flow' side of things before getting to my point.</div>
<div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Jason Crawford <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jason@purebsd.net" target="_blank">jason@purebsd.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">On 08/30/2012 04:50 PM, Justin Ferguson wrote:<br>
> Firstly and most importantly, to me, your right to own, possess and sell<br>
> exploits is pretty clearly protected under the 2nd amendment. I'd argue<br>
> for that legitimacy in the same way I would your right to do the same<br>
> with a firearm. I do however take contention with what the actual<br>
> circumstances are though, a market where you can only sell firearms to<br>
> your respective governments instead of an actual open and free market.<br>
<br>
</div>I don't normally post on these, but saying that exploits should be<br>
regulated under the second amendment is kind of scary. Look at all the<br>
regulations we have for possession and carrying of firearms. Do we want<br>
to say that anyone who's in possession of illegal drugs would now do<br>
serious hard time in a federal prison if they have exploits too? As<br>
possessing a gun while using or possessing illegal drugs would land you<br>
in prison. Maybe states like California that greatly restrict what kind<br>
of firearms you can have and buy will basically chase all hackers out<br>
now. Or in New York where owning a machine-gun is a felony, owning<br>
CANVAS would be now too, as that's 'automatic' exploiting (greater than<br>
one exploit fired off with a single mouse click). At one point<br>
California was trying to pass legislation that would only let you<br>
procure 50 bullets a month, shall we only allow people to procure 50<br>
payloads a month? Oh, lets make sure people can only buy exploits from<br>
federal exploit licensed dealers (except in some states that allow<br>
private purchases maybe) and your name is now on their list that the<br>
government can recall at any time. And of course, if you are a<br>
registered dealer of exploits, that means the ATF can now enter your<br>
home any time they want, and you can't stop them, since that's what they<br>
can do with FFL's. Which also means any time you get exploits over the<br>
internet, it must go to a federal exploit licensed dealer in your state<br>
for them to run a background check on you. I'm sorry but regulating<br>
exploits under the second amendment is the WRONG thing to do here.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
><br>
><br>
> > George W Bush walked into a room full of defense and intelligence<br>
> officials, and he pointed out to them in a dry Southern way how if they<br>
><br>
> > didn't think of something better that the Isrealis were 100% going<br>
> to attack the Iranian nuclear program, and they were going to pull the<br>
><br>
> > United States into it, and there was going to be a large serving<br>
> of _extremely unpleasant_ sandwich with a small side of possible<br>
> nuclear<br>
><br>
> > winter for everyone involved...<br>
><br>
> > And looking around the room, the people who had never shot a gun,<br>
> who that very night would go home to play an RPG so hideously<br>
><br>
> > complex it has its own government, who spent the time before the<br>
> meetings with high powered government officials arguing about Firefly<br>
><br>
> > versus Buffy the Vampire Slayer's various scripts, people who if<br>
> given have a chance would expound upon deeply held personal opinons<br>
><br>
> > regarding various subtleties in the licensing of Unix<br>
> distributions,...these people simply shrugged and said "Yeah, we got<br>
> this one."<br>
><br>
><br>
> This is a bit misguided at best and I've not quite decided for myself<br>
> whether you are delluding yourself or just trying to delude readers.<br>
> Ignoring that the most likely candidate for how the worm ended up there<br>
> in the first place-- a FTO, the MEK/PMOI, who exists on our lists<br>
> because of their old habits of killing Americans and thus that<br>
> participating in the cyber-side of things could be rightfully construed<br>
> as material support for a terrorist organization. And ignoring that you<br>
> decoupled operations from the targeted assassination of scientists<br>
> aspect, as those aren't exactly thank you notes being strapped to the<br>
> side of their cars-- isn't the correct answer when faced with this<br>
> situation to question our ties to Israel, a country that legitimately<br>
> serves no interest for the United States instead of doubling down by<br>
> participating in an operation designed to help satiate their desire for<br>
> blood?<br>
><br>
> About a year ago I had a box compromised after I got a new twitter<br>
> follower that was of the Tibetan NGO type who had obviously had their<br>
> website compromised and was in turn compromising visitors to their<br>
> website-- chrome 0day in the wild on an NGOs website. Sure, it could<br>
> have been some random spammers or similar, but we all know that's not<br>
> what's going on.<br>
><br>
> What exactly do you think they do with the intel they collect from such<br>
> operations? I just don't buy the 'hate the game not the player' argument<br>
> here, if you sell someone an exploit that in turn ends up used to exfil<br>
> intel that in turn ends in an extraordinary rendition or a car-bomb<br>
> strapped to the side of a scientists car, you're hands are anything but<br>
> bloodless and you have most certainly deployed bombs and guns unlike you<br>
> speculate.<br>
><br>
> But whatever, thats life and we're all spooks now. What I have issue<br>
> with is the idea that it's a free market or anything to do with civil<br>
> liberties when in essence if you tried to sell the same exploits to<br>
> something like Wikileaks, you'd quickly find yourself embroiled in a<br>
> series of legal snafu's. And of course, if I say sell to the NSA/CIA, no<br>
> one bats an eye, but if I were to suggest selling to Wikileaks or<br>
> telecommix or the PLF et al, that would sound insane. At least have the<br>
> decency to call a spade a spade and instead of pretending to be<br>
> free-agents people should at least acknowledge that they're essentially<br>
> agents of their respective states.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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