<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Ditto. If you want to believe the US does that go ahead, you're free to believe they planned 9/11 and faked the moon landing too. I've worked inside the government and plenty of commercial (including big bids with international stakes) and have never once heard of, seen hinted at, or even contemplated the USG ever spying for corporate reasons. Ever. And that covers a lot of the IC, DoD, etc. Heck the USG is having trouble figuring out how to tell companies when they being spied on, much less sharing competitive data from other places. </div><div><br></div><div>That said, if China (and other countries to a lesser extent) don't stop and we can't dissuade them, who knows what will happen. They may decide "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." But that hasn't happened yet. </div><div><br></div><div>Jason</div><div><br>On Jun 27, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Richard Bejtlich <<a href="mailto:taosecurity@gmail.com">taosecurity@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div>To the extent the US IC has ever conducted surveillance against private foreign companies, discovering bribery was the reason. Notice how often bribery appears in the Echelon list. <br><br>Other cases, like Enercon, are bogus, e.g. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Patent_dispute">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enercon#Patent_dispute</a><br>
<br></div>It's clear that non-Americans (and many Americans) find it hard to believe that the US IC doesn't spy on behalf of American companies, but it's the truth. <br><br></div><div>If US IC economic espionage was such a problem, I would expect more evidence. Everyone points to the same 2001 Echelon report and has nothing else to offer.<br>
</div><div><br></div>Richard<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Fionnbharr <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thouth@gmail.com" target="_blank">thouth@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">But the NSA do help American companies win contracts / do industrial espionage. One link I have handy is <a href="http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm#10" target="_blank">http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm#10</a> (scroll down to 10.7 for the list) which has a short list of known cases from the 90's put out by the European parliament. Also note that it's countries that the US would probably consider friendly that they're hacking, not just the main economic rivals.<div>
<div><br></div><div>It might not be on the same level as the Chinese but it's disingenuous to suggest American businesses are somehow the innocent bystanders caught in the cross fire or that there isn't some precedent for this behaviour by the US.</div>
</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On 26 June 2013 23:53, Dave Aitel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dave@immunityinc.com" target="_blank">dave@immunityinc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<a href="http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2013-06/26/content_16659265.htm" target="_blank">http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2013-06/26/content_16659265.htm</a><br>
<br>
Normally I don't like to stick my toe in the neutron star's gravity
well that is the NSA-Snowden discussion. But it's important to point
out that there are developing standards of behavior being negotiated
not between China and the US, but between corporations and
governments as a whole.<br>
<br>
Chinese media has been going on for a week about how the Snowden
PRISM revelations about the US hacking China are in some way
equitable to the US complaints about Chinese government sponsored
hacking for the purposes of economic espionage. This is pure public
relations nonsense. The complaints US industry has about Chinese
state sponsored hacking is not that it is occurring, but that the
fruits of the hacking are being given directly to Chinese companies
which compete with US (or European, or Korean, etc.) companies. <br>
<br>
It is impossible as a US company to go to the NSA and say "Hey, my
competitor in China makes a pretty nice bulldozer, can I have the
plans to that? Also it'd be nice to know what their bid is on that
contract in Malaysia we both want to win." <br>
<br>
It's just that simple. Company's hate being forced to give
information to their governments, or trojan their networking
equipment (in the case of Huawei and ZTE). It's <b>bad</b> for
business. Especially when you get caught or it gets leaked (which it
ALWAYS does one way or the other).<br>
<br>
But they hate state-sponsored economic espionage more and I hardly
think Chinese companies would enjoy a change in Washington's tune
that allowed US companies to employ the full power of the NSA
against them.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-dave<br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
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