<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>are you using the civilian off the shelf Python ? if i was into typical enterprise pentest or offense biz two questions would be raised immediately<br></div>- so the AV people need a tiny addition to their engines to particularly act out when something smells like python particularly when the calls are going down like ..the same route , well , since its always the standard python ?<br>
</div>- isnt this a risk if our adversary finds out a node is active on her system and grab the thing and use the "forward-thinking technology" against us or their own favor whatever that is ?<br><br></div>obviously i am asking such "selling-session" standard questions like most .org/.gov typical customers to hear your technical counter argument ( presuming i am going to learn something , not get iced by a move like mad men's don draper in the scene where he talks about the candy in the brothel and what it meant to him -- a ceremony :> )<br>
<br></div>meanwhile i am going to put this out for folks@dd to hear back : LLVM is one the wonders of the world . although Duqu developers preferred to develop code based on their own framework ground up and flame used the typical lua embed , developing a middleware-style LLVM-based transformer to produce native code from some .py or .rb for almost any platform - x86 ..to ..say.. TI's rarely used DSPs - is easy work -- why using this technique isn't popular in "our circle" ?<br>
<br></div>-mh<br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Dave Aitel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dave@immunityinc.com" target="_blank">dave@immunityinc.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
So as much as Chris tries to drive all of the complexity for
INNUENDO to the server, I find there's a sort of feature-gravity
that makes you want to put it onto the client. Even the simplest of
modules has a big enough state table and complexity that I'm tempted
to call it a "Behavior" and not a module at all. INNUENDO's client
is of course running Python, and I wanted to explore WHY for a
second.<br>
<br>
Obviously one reason is that Immunity has a ton of Python
experience. But in trojans, Python is hardly most people's first
pick for a language. You're hauling 40Mb of code and data with you
when you want to run somewhere. This isn't ideal for a lot of
scenarios. <br>
<br>
But you're getting one, *very* important thing when you use Python:<br>
<br>
1. Your most complex code will be a lot less buggy. <br>
<br>
For advanced remote access trojans, you are operating in a
completely unknown environment and frankly, you may NEVER be able to
update it or reach it again. Any detection or failure could be
globally catastrophic. This means your code has to be forward
thinking in a way that is not typical. So it simply has to be much
more correct than code usually is. People tend to write complex
things more CORRECTLY in Python than in Ruby or Lua or
(Naudhubillah!) C. That reason alone is why the future of remote
access trojans is embedded Python engines. If you're trying to build
trojans that have emergent behavior, then you need a language that
makes that behavior as clear and easy to understand as possible. <br>
<br>
I mean, deep down, I refuse to give any ground whatsoever to the new
industry of incident response people who just realized how useful
instrumentation and anomaly detection is. It's time to tool up for
the challenges ahead! :><br>
<br>
-dave<br>
(P.S. You can mess with INNUENDO at<a href="http://www.infiltratecon.com/" target="_blank"> INFILTRATE 2014 in Miami</a>!)<br>
<br>
</div>
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